Sunday, August 31, 2008

Day 77 - August 31 - My Atrophied Faith - Part 2

This is Part 2 in an unnumbered series of thoughts about what it means to exercise faith in this day and age. If you missed Part 1, or need to refresh yourself on it, click here to read it.

Question #1 - Does "having great faith" mean "Not my will, but Thine"?

Question #2 - Does "having great faith" mean "I never ask God for anything I want"?

Question #3 - Does "having great faith" mean "never asking to have a bad situation end"?

I contend that the answer to every one of those questions is a resounding "No".

Let's start off with an anecdote. One of the tendencies many people have here in the U.S. of Consumerism is Packratting. For those of you who didn't have the benefit of growing up in the desert, packrats are these cute little bushy-tailed critters who hoard food and other objects, cramming their nests full of the stuff they collect. Many folks are the same, collecting things until they have multiple storage units full of stuff they haven't seen in years. If you took a look in my garage, you'd see that I suffer from a mild form of this disease, but there are some who have made keeping things into an art form. They've got rooms and garages and storage units and shipping containers full of stuff they neither use nor need, and I have to ask the question - why do you have it if you don't use it?

Now let's talk a bit about the topic of this post - our unused faith. It seems that question applies to my faith, as well. If I don't use it, why have it in the first place? Of course, you knew I was going to drag this conversation back to faith one way or another; but am I really suggesting that we aren't using our faith the way it is intended?

Well, yes, I am. Allow me to explain - but in order to do so, I first need to talk about praying "not my will, but Thine".

I'm going to drop a bombshell on you with this one, but I really believe I'm supposed to do so. You ready?

I don't find any support in scripture for the idea that we're supposed to pray "not my will but Thine" when we ask for what we want.

There are numerous references in the New Testament to living your life according to God's will - but I can find only one reference to someone actually praying those words in the New Testament, and that person is Jesus - God Himself - praying in the garden of Gethsemane. Now, the question isn't really why God the Son, anguishing over His future (one He KNOWS must happen), prays for it to be changed. I'm pretty sure all of us humans get the idea that his immediate future wasn't all that attractive. No, the question I want answered is what He meant when He prayed "Not my will, but Thine be done". I respectfully submit that Christ, having the foreknowledge of God, and (already) knowing the answer to His anguished prayer, and also (already) knowing that the path laid before Him was the one and only way God the Father had ordained for God the Son to walk, spoke that phrase to signal utter submission to His Father's will. Now, one could argue that this is an example for all of us, and I suppose that verbalizing your inner spirit like that isn't a bad thing per se. I just don't think this passage was written to be used as a model of Christian prayer.

I suspect that turning the phrase into a mantra does something entirely different than what Christ intended. Christ, in extreme distress, uttered that phrase as a sign of submission. When we say it, however, aren't we really uttering it as justification for not believing God will do what we ask? I mean, it sure sounds holy and Christlike, but what am I saying when I say it? Think about it - if I pray that my son gets up and walks, and then stick "not my will but Yours, Lord" on the end as I finish, aren't I really leaving myself a loophole so that if it doesn't happen I can say "Well, the Lord didn't will it"? Actually, as I read back over that last sentence, even writing that down demonstrates that my faith isn't where I want it yet - faith that moves mountains doesn't concern itself with "if it doesn't happen". So if I pray "not my will but Thine", Isn't it possible that what I'm really saying is "OK, I don't believe You're actually gonna give me what I want, so You go ahead and do whatever You think You need to do"? At which point I am not really praying, but expressing my unbelief instead. In that case, my muttering of the phrase allows me to give up anytime I want and say "Well, I guess the Lord doesn't will it", whereas NOT praying it means I have to keep praying until I am answered, or give up and call it what it is - throwing away my confidence. Muttering that rote phrase then becomes a cop-out, because it negates the whole meaning and purpose of my prayer, which is to lift my need to the throne. Oh, yeah - and (ironically) there's no support for it in scripture anyway!

You might now be asking "What do you mean, there's no support for it"? Well, let's look at the scriptures and see how Jesus tells us to pray for things -

(Disclaimer - I am only quoting the pertinent verses. DO NOT take my word for this - check the context!)

Matthew 7:7-11 (see Luke 11:9-13 as well) - "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!"

Matthew 21:22 - "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."

Mark 11:24 -"Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours."

John 14:10-14 - "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it."

OK, so we get the idea of how Jesus says to pray for things - ASK! And it seems to me that the sum of these teachings and examples tells us to ask, believing, and it will be done, because God delights in doing good things for His children.

Let's set aside (for now) the question of "why doesn't everybody get everything they want, then?" and keep the train of thought going - what about Christ's followers? How did they pray? Let's look at one of them, a fellow named Paul. You may have heard of him... 8-)

2 Corinthians 12:8-10 - "Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong."

What I'm seeing here is "A persistent trial was given to me, so I prayed to have it removed. And God told me "No, for My grace is sufficient for you". So now, since God told me "no", I am content where I am because when I'm weak, I'm strong because He's strong". (That's the Eric Williamson paraphrase, BTW!) What that means is that Paul asked right up until God said "no" - then he stopped. He didn't try to defy God's will by trying to "force" God to do something - once God said "no" Paul accepted that and moved on. But what I think is significant is that Paul didn't give up asking - he asked until he got a clear "yes or no" answer, then he stopped.

I respectfully suggest that this fits the model of prayer that Jesus laid out for his followers much more closely than "Thy will be done" does. Praying "Thy will be done" sounds holy, which is why we like it so much - but it's not in accordance with the scriptures.

Now, before anyone gets all irate that I would suggest such a thing, go check the Bible your ownself. I'm not making this stuff up - it's right there in black and white (or red and white, as the case may be). I contend that our penchant (and I really do mean "our" - I'm trying to unlearn this as we speak) for praying "Thy will be done" allows us to avoid having to flex our faith. As anyone who goes to the gym knows, there's a reason it's called "working out" - NOT working out is a whole lot easier than working out - but it doesn't accomplish much of anything, either.

I believe that the western church, by and large, has gotten lazy in their faith. If you find yourself hot under the collar from that statement, please realize that I include myself in that statement - I can't throw any stones, here. But if that's true (and I believe it is), what does it mean?

Well, I think it means it's time for me (and you, by extension) to actually open the Bible, find out what's true, unlearn and toss out the false stuff we've learned over the years, and start living/praying/trusting the way God intended us to.

Hmmm, maybe living a life of faith in Christ isn't the cakewalk so much of the church advertises - "Just come to Jesus and all your problems will be solved!", right? Trust me, grasping your faith and trying to learn to use it is not easy at all. In fact, it's a lot closer to torture than anything else. And I can't even honestly say it will be worth it - I haven't been able to unlearn enough to actually apply it yet. So right now you're reading the words of someone who hasn't effectively put this into practice. But because I sense the urgency of learning the truth about my faith, I pass it along to you in the hope that someone else will join me on this journey as well.

Chew on this stuff for a while - don't fire from the hip in your responses, if any. Pray. Research. Find the truth, and we'll talk. And I will throw you another tough challenge as well - give your reasoning the dignity of your identity. If your response doesn't generate enough belief inside yourself to post your own screen name, is it worth posting? I don't mean to offend, but everybody here knows my real name is Eric Williamson, and I am laying my faith and my beliefs out in the open and allowing the whole world to examine them and pick them apart. If you don't believe your own positions enough to publicly declare them, are they worth sharing? Many here have spoken before about becoming bolder in our faith - where better to practice than in the family? Who knows - it might just help us sharpen our own faith, and maybe even learn how to handle opposition better!

I don't really know where Part 3 is going to take us - it's going to have something to do with using our faith the way we're supposed to, but I don't really know the direction that will take. I've got some ideas, but no clear direction yet. Stay tuned. One of these days I want to understand what it means to live a life of practical faith - primarily because I'm not very good at it yet...





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19 Comments:

At August 31, 2008 4:16 PM , Anonymous rachael starke said...

Okay, brother - I'm skimming this as I get ready to love my neighbors at a block party, and it's obviously worth more than skimming. Providentially, later tonight we are flinging the kids in the car to come up to see our friends the Troupes - the ones ten minutes from you guys - for a day, and also, we were hoping, to drop by and say hello and (very important) deliver more pictures from the girls. So, I'm going to print this out and read it over with Phil because we have been wrestling in prayer with and for you, and now I want to wrestle through this issue with you too. I'll come out and say it, on mere skimming, some of what's here sounds good, and some sounds (big breath in) not 100% good. But that's with skimming, and with many biases, and with a mind that hasn't had an opportunity to wrestle through this on such a personal level before, and with only myself to think through it, not now with my really discerning, wise husband. So, sorry for the long comment, but just to give you a heads up that we're thinking, reading, and praying, with you and for you, and committing to be in all of those things for the long haul, even when it seems like maybe there will be points we don't agree.

 
At August 31, 2008 5:00 PM , Blogger Chelle Y. said...

I have been taught all my life to "pray that way," but never, until now, realized how much I was doing that as something I had been taught (like a robot). I, for one, do want God's Will in my life, but I also want my prayers answered, especially when it comes to people I care about in my life.

That is how I pray for you and your family. I pray specifically that God would heal Connor completely. I long for the day that I can see him again at the drums at church, and know that he is a walking miracle. Maybe I am crazy, and all medical doctors would agree to that, but I also know that our God is able to do far more. I believe that with all my heart, so that is the way I pray.

It was so nice seeing Joelle at church today. You have such a sweet daughter. It is truly an encouragement to me, that one so young, can still smile and be kind to others, when she herself is going through such a big trial. I know you are so proud of both of your "kids."

May God bless you today and may He give you more answers to prayers soon.

 
At August 31, 2008 5:21 PM , Anonymous Mary Murphy said...

jushkybpEric, I know it is easy to doubt our own faith because we are weak, but Jesus is our strength. He didn't tell us to have great overwhelming faith but even the faith as small as the mustard seed and it can grow into great things. I can see your reasoning about "not my will but Thine, Lord".Read Luke 11:5-13.Jesus tells us to keep asking because our Heavenly Father wants to give us the desires of our hearts. What we need to ask for is that the answer to our prayer will be to His glory and prove His power as it did with Job. I know that we go from day to day not exercising our faith as we should but when God has put you to the test you have testified to his saving power and have offered comfort to others even in your distress.We think we should be outstanding in our trust but in reading of all the saints of the Bible you will see that they felt that the heavens were closed against them at times and they failed God at times.Our Father knows our weaknesses and says He will strenghten us. There is an old hymn that says "I hear the Savior say,"Thy strength indeed is small,Child of weakness, watch and pray,Find in me thine all in all".So keep the faith,do not be wearbty in well doing and keep on praying. Each of Connor's advances have been miracles and there will be more. From the beginning I have held God to His promise that He wants only good for us and I believe that Connor will be completely healed to God's glory. In love and prayer. Daniel Harvey's grandmother, Mary Murphy

 
At August 31, 2008 5:39 PM , Blogger jeanine said...

Eric - I agree with you and I believe you are on the right track.It usually takes being in place of desperation, to have the courage to ask these questions. To stare down the barrel of the gun of our faith, so to speak, and ask - is this gun really loaded? I believe that God delights in this type of inquiry because He truly wants to be known.Prayer and faith and praying for what we want shouldn't be vague and mysterious. We should follow our own kid's examples - when they ask, they are direct and very persistant (do I get an AMEN). When they do resort to manipulation, charm, and clever wording, we see right through it, so they might as well just be forthright. And if they seem wishy washy about what they are asking for, we are less likely to grant it - right? I'm not saying we are the same as God as parents, but even in our feeble fleshly attempts at parenting, we can identify with this principle. If His word to us says to make "our" requests known to Him - we need to have the boldness to go for it and ask and leave the fall out of a "No" answer to God.
"My name is Jeanine Corini and I approved this message"
Love ya

 
At August 31, 2008 6:16 PM , Blogger 2Badgers said...

Thank you for so honestly sharing where God, through His Spirit, has been stretching you and for encouraging us to exercise our "muscle" of faith, Eric. Our family continues to ask for Connor's complete restoration, as Christ taught in the verses we believe along with you, realizing that God is able to do exceedingly more than we ask or think....(Ephesians 3:20-21). To Him be the glory!

We are thankful for your family's testimony, and will continue to watch God's provision and be in prayer for Connor's successful move closer to family and many who will visit him more frequently. We look forward to meeting you also, as Connor's health and settling in permit:)

Debbie, in Hollister

 
At August 31, 2008 6:56 PM , Anonymous Lynda Varada said...

It is a good point to not be lazy and passive in our Christian walk. I believe that to pray Thy will be done, as opposed to my will, is really important because my Lord and Savior knows what is best for me. He looks at all our pain and suffering through Heaven's eyes, with an eternal view towards all of it. I, on the other hand, look through this tiny lens of how it effects me and whom I love. I need God, He is my provider, I need His vision because He sees all of it, past, present and future, everyones all in one glance. Praying and working things out until we hear an answer is important, but how hard is it to hear the answer we don't want to hear? I've sat with a Christian woman dying of cancer and feeling like a spiritual loser because she didn't have enough faith and if only she had enough faith then she wouldn't be dying of cancer. God heals who He chooses to heal and we don't know why this side of heaven. I want to see Connor walk again and have a fully physical life too, but that is not the only definition of victory. This is my faith: I trust God and I believe that He loves me and everything that is happening has gone through His hands first for His glory and my benefit. Do I feel that way everyday? NO! But when I consider these things this is what I know. Jesus loves me. Jesus loves my kids even more than I love my kids. He hears me. I will wait, not passively like a victim, I will wait with the confident assurance that in His time this will all be perfected.

 
At August 31, 2008 7:05 PM , Blogger Violet said...

I appreciate your thoughts here, Eric, and can identify with many of them as we went through a crisis time with one of our sons three years ago.

I completely agree with you on seeing Christ's prayer in the garden as an expression of His complete submission to the will of His Father, rather than looking for a loophole if God didn't answer according to His particular request. However, I got the feeling that you see the common use of "not my will, but Thine be done" as a mantra or copout tacked onto most prayers. You're correct in saying that there is nowhere in the Bible that teaches us to do such a thing. However, when Christ's disciples asked Him to teach them to pray, He actually did include asking the Father for His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's will is always done! His will is that He will be glorified. And how is that will accomplished in heaven? Do you think the angels hesitate or question or complain or anything, before they move to accomplish His expressed will to them? That's how He wants us to pray for His will to be done here on earth by us. He is glorified in our lives as He does whatever it takes to conform us to the image of His Son.

Yes, He tells us to ask whatever is on our hearts and to believe that He will answer in the BEST way possible, even though it may be different from what we originally asked. When our son was diagnosed with a potentially terminal condition, we were sent the following quote by C.H. Spurgeon: "Unerring wisdom ordained your lot, and selected for you the safest and best condition. Remember this: had any other condition been better for you than the one in which you are, divine love would have put you there." I have found that my faith has been the weakest in the area of being able to trust God to do what is best from His perspective rather than mine. His answer to our prayers for our son was different than what we asked, but in hind sight we wouldn't change a thing because He has been glorified and we and others have been greatly enriched for eternity. Now we see through a glass darkly, but one day everything will be clear.

My great encouragement to you would be to keep asking, keep knocking, keep knowing that He will answer in the best possible way "for His own glory and your best good".

Continuing to pray for you all.

Violet Tse
Portland, OR

 
At August 31, 2008 8:15 PM , Anonymous Cheryl said...

I'm printing off part #1 and part #2 b/c this is deeper than skimming will allow...it might have more "meat in it" than the sermon I heard today & it was a GREAT sermon. God bless you and I praise God for your faith and for sharing your heart with us all. Cheryl

 
At August 31, 2008 10:34 PM , Anonymous Charlene said...

This is deep stuff. I can tell you when I prayed, "Not my will but yours be done." it was the hardest thing that I have ever done. Not at all because it was a cop-out in case I didn't get what I wanted, but because I knew that what I wanted might not be what God wanted, and that scared the willies out of me. I can honestly tell you that it wasn't a just in case it doesn't go my way type of a back up.

I believe Lee said several weeks ago something about people can pray that prayer thinking that they are being spiritual when it really isn't. That caused me to really do some soul searching. I didn't do it out of trying to feel spiritual or thinking that if I did it God would be so blessed that He would in turn honor my desire. But maybe there was some fear or cowardice on my part. I know that I had this concern that what if God gave into my plea and then something worse happened? What if my very strong willed boy grew up to reject my faith and ended up in hell? I thought about the verse where it says that God gave them the desires of their heart but turned them over to a wasting desease, or where it says that God answered Hezekiah's plea
but that the last ten years of his life weren't as good as the previous years. So I believe that sometimes God does give us what maybe isn't His perfect will for us. He never desired that the Children of Israel have a king, but He did give into them.

It's a tough question, but I think saying, "Thy will be done." can just totally and honestly be saying that no matter what I desire I want what you want even more."

Blessings to you all.
Charlene

 
At August 31, 2008 10:45 PM , Anonymous Janet Thiel said...

Wow, have you been reading my mind and heart! I've been in the depths of desperation and couldn't agree more with the looking down the barrel of a gun analogy. I'm terrified of what I might learn and desperate to find an overwhelming faith - a faith that's not complacent . . . alas, God's knows my heart and my trepidation. I'm convinced the road of great faith is not an easy one and I'm scared. So am I disobedient or a pacifist? Can I ever learn, can I ever gain that trust, to take that leap of faith?

 
At August 31, 2008 11:06 PM , Blogger Michelle said...

Eric-
1 John 5:14-15- This is the confidence which we have in him, that if we ask anything ACCORDING TO HIS WILL he hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have obtained the requests made to Him?"

Jesus does teach us to pray in Matthew 6:10- ""Your will be done."

My question would be "How do we pray according to God's will and how do we know what God's will is when we pray?"

I believe that scripture is very clear about what the Lord's will is for believers when it comes to His Word being obeyed and His commands being kept. However, when it comes to issues of the Lord's unrevealed will, one must search and pray the scriptures, but always be willing to recognize that, in our humanness what we ask may not be His will.

I do not believe that in saying not my will but yours be done one is uttering a justification for not believing God will do what we ask (although it may be for some), but simply a humble recognition that follows a prayer of great faith, that although we see this to be the best solution and we may even have scripture to back it up; God may not- a recognition that we don't want God to necessarily give us what we want, but what He knows that we need.

 
At August 31, 2008 11:36 PM , Blogger Linda said...

Violet mentioned, the Disciples asking Jesus teach us to pray

when Christ's disciples asked Him to teach them to pray, He actually did include asking the Father for His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.
this is in Luke 11:1----- We actually had a guest pastor at church today and this is exactly what we studied. He went from luke to Matthew 15:21-28 The Gentile woman with the possessed daughter I have so many notes it will take me a while to get through them, I think sense this subject has been coming up a lot lately I might go get the CD tomorrow so I don't miss anything. It is a good study and I know God is being glorified through all of this, now see, He's using Conmnor for His glory again it even grows my faith more when I stand back and see what He is doing, I do believe His will is being done as we dig through the scriptures for answers that we so despretly need right now. Lets keep digging and asking for the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth we know He says if any of you needs wisdom, ask our generous God, and He will give it to you.
James 1:5 so lets all ask and see what the Lord shows us. Eric, we are praying for complete restoration for Connor, I do believe this is God's will and we will keep asking, knocking even begging like so many in the Bible who were healed because of their faith and persistance. God is good all the time, He is always in control, His ways are higher than ours and He loves us with a perfect love, Amen!

Expecting a miracle tomorrow, praying in Downey

 
At August 31, 2008 11:45 PM , Anonymous sarah simon said...

Hi Eric,
Hi also to Cherie, Joelle and Connor,
Well, initially I thought I had something specific to say, then I read Charlene's post. Her reasoning makes a lot of sense. Then I read again the few short verses of Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane and I had another thought.

Jesus was God in human form, so I imagine He could have enacted any part of His will He chose to. We mere humans cannot do that. So for Jesus to say "Thy will be done", He could have been submitting His will - which could have changed the situation - to God the Father's will. If I am blind and I pray for sight, I cannot choose my own will over God's and make myself see (if Gods will is that I remain blind). Jesus, on the other hand, DID have that ability. Often we are able to follow our own will, but we do not have the omnipotence that Jesus had, therefore, the phrase "not my will, but Thine be done" does not necessarily fall into the same context, I don't think, as when Jesus said it. .....So that was just another thought process that entered my mind as I read Mark 14:36.

So right after I read your post, Eric, and before I read everyone else's post and re-read the verse in Mark, I was very much agreeing with you. For me, in my heart, I want God's will to be done, but I certainly will ask for what I want. The problem is, I don't know Gods will in many situations, so how can I guess if my will and His are together or divergent. (Michelle touched on this in her post) So I figure, God knows my heart, He knows that I want His will. I will ask my Father for what I think I need. He can always say no. (or yes!)

It's like, when we were small - my dad might have said "nobody's going anywhere this weekend, we're staying home and shoveling horse manure". (No, don't laugh, I'm not joking!) If there was a special place I wanted to go, by all means, I would have asked my dad. Who knows, he might have let me go. It's not quite the same thing, but the idea of asking is the same.

I feel like I have rambled on quite long enough. I continue to ask for Connor's body to be completely restored. I love the updates with signs: hurting belly button, tickling toes, etc.!

 
At September 1, 2008 5:51 AM , Anonymous Carolyn Arneson said...

There is a lot of theology that goes into this subject matter and it deserves a robust and well-reasoned discussion. It's good to find people searching the Word for insight into this and not just "shooting from the hip" as you cautioned.

I've been doing a lot of study on this topic for some time now and last night I wrote at length about it here and the whole post disappeared when I tried to send it! I am unable to re-create it at this moment but I do want to say that, from what I glean from Scripture, God is most interested in conforming us to the person of Jesus Christ. That we align ourselves to the character qualities of His Son is always His will for us. We all get discouraged and frustrated when we don't receive the answer we desire to our prayers in our time frame, but it can grow us and stretch us to pray for other things along the way; prayers for wisdom, understanding, patience, faith, humility, strength,and discernment always delight and honor God. We wait upon the Lord, not in a static mode but constantly reconforming ourselves to the person of Christ. I pray that He will fill you with wisdom and strength for the journey.

 
At September 1, 2008 6:32 AM , Blogger pilgriminconflict said...

Eric,

I go to WHCC and, though I have never interacted with Connor (I met your daughter this weekend), I have been following the blog pretty much daily since it started and have been praying daily for him, you, and your family. It is amazing how, though you have never met them, you can feel so invested in another. I guess that's what it means to be part of one body. Only in the Lord. You have challenged and encouraged me as I have watched God work in you and through you. Thank you.

As I started to read your post, my first thought was that the answer to questions 2 and 3 is surely no, but not the answer to question 1. The answer to that question must be yes. But by the time I had finished reading, I realized that through you God had put your finger on my lack of faith.

The amazing thing is that in God's providence I had just read an exposition of James 1:5-7 (only this part!) last night in a set of Puritan works I recently received that I was just getting into for the first time (out of 22 volumes, these 10 pages in volume 4, apart from the introduction in volume 1, were the ones I chose to read first out of the 22 volumes and hundreds of pages I could have chosen from).

Though James is specifically writing about asking God when we lack wisdom, do the same conditions (faith without doubting) not apply when we approach God to ask for anything? Now I'm going to quote you an excerpt at length that, even though I had read it last night, I still must not have fully understood it until I had finished reading your post because if I did I would have completely agreed with you on question 1 from the beginning:

(commenting on James 1.6: But let him ask in faith ,with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.)

When we have no certain assurance of his will, the work of faith is to glorify and apply [God's] power. Unbelief stumbleth most at that, rather at God's can than will; as appeareth partly by experience.--Fears come upon us only when means fail and the blessings expected are most unlikely; which argueth that it is not the uncertainty of God's will, but the misconceit of his power, that maketh us doubt. The present dangers and difficulties surprise us with such a terror that we cannot comfortably use the help of prayer out of a faith in God's power:--partly by the testimony of the scriptures. Search, and you shall find that God's power and all-sufficiency is the first ground and reason of faith. Abraham believed, because 'God was able to perform,' Romans 4.21. And that unbelief expresseth itself in such language as implieth a plain distrust of God's power; as Psalm 78.19, 'Can the Lord prepare a table in the wilderness?' It is not the will but can: 2 Kings 7.2, 'If the Lord should open the windows of heaven, how can this be?' So the Virgin Mary: Luke 1.34, 'How can these things be?' and so in many other instances. Men deceive themselves when they think they doubt because they know not the will of God; their main hesitancy is at his power. Look, as in the case of conversion, we pretend a cannot, when indeed we will not; so, oppositely, in the case of faith, we pretend we know not God's will, when we indeed doubt his can. Therefore the main work of your faith is to give him the glory of his power, leaving his will to himself. Christ putteth you, as he did the blind men (Matt. 9.28), to the question, 'Am I able?' Your souls must answer, 'Yes, Lord.' And in prayer you must come as the leper: Matt 8.2, 'Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.' Whether he grant you or not, believe; that is, say in your thoughts, Lord, thou canst (The Works of Thomas Manton, Volume 4, pp. 48-49).

Now, I don't in any way think that Thomas Manton is an inspired apostle. But it cannot be coincidence how what he writes here (about 400 years ago, can you tell by the grammar =P?) almost completely coincides with what you wrote yesterday, at least to me having read Manton last night and Eric Williamson this morning.

Perhaps what we might view Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane in light of is the fact that Jesus isn't a totally depraved sinner whose heart is filled with all kinds of unbelief like the rest of us. Jesus knew His Father's power, as well as everything else about His Father (Matt 11:27), perfectly. We don't (Is that not why there are so many exhortations and prayers in the epistles for us to grow in the knowledge of God? Jesus didn't have to). Therefore He, unlike us, isn't deceived by what is really in His heart when He prays "Not my will, but Thine?" And though this prayer ought to be the posture of our hearts flowing out in the way we live our lives, we must be very careful with our use of it (we must know our hearts) because praying it could result in the very opposite of what we think and want:

For that person [who doubts in unbelief] must not suppose that he will receive anything [not just wisdom] from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
James 1:7,8

Scary words that we would all do well to ponder the implications of.

So thank you again, Eric. Your faith (according to the measure that God has assigned) is greater than mine.

I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.
Luke 7:9


And I join with you in continuing to pray for Connor with boldness, "Lord, if you will, you can raise him up."

Growing in the knowledge of His power,
Chris Gatihi

 
At September 1, 2008 12:36 PM , Blogger Michael said...

Hi brother,

I followed your thought process for the most part and sure agree with it for the most part.

Regarding the first question, however, I can't seem to get around how Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, Matthew 26: 36-45, and especially verses 39, 42 (see Mark 14:36; Luke 22: 42 too). Did Jesus have weak faith or strong faith?

I'm not trying to discourage anyone. But in light of the post and some of the responses I just wondered how this fact from jesus life fits into the equation.

 
At September 1, 2008 1:08 PM , Anonymous Lee said...

Eric – if I may, I first have a question for Chris: in the quote from Thomas Manton, is it possible that he is mainly getting at “doubting while asking” and not actually addressing praying “not my will but Thine”? I think that this might be the case. After all, he cites the leper who, while affirming Christ’s power, starts his affirmation with “Lord, if…” Furthermore, Manton states: “Therefore the main work of your faith is to give him the glory of his power, leaving his will to himself.” However, I don’t have the whole text of the commentary, so I can’t begin to say for sure. (http://www.ccel.org appears to have a different commentary on James by Manton.)

Secondly, I have some questions for you, Eric: do you see any tension between your new understanding and the many passages which teach us that suffering is not only not bad for us (in the long run), but actually good for us? That trials are things we should endure joyfully, knowing that they produce patience and maturity (James 1:2-8) – oh, and along the way to maturity, trials test (or prove, the same word used in the phrase “proof of your faith” in 1 Peter 1:7) our faith? That it is granted to us not only to believe in Christ, but to suffer for His sake (Philippians 1:29)? The first definition (http://www.biblestudytools.net/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5483&version=nas) for the word translated “granted” in that verse is: “to do something pleasant or agreeable (to one), to do a favor to, gratify“. This is a very different view of suffering than we are used to having! Finally, what of Colossians 1:24, where Paul speaks of his sufferings as “filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions”? [Here I must apologize if I’ve already sent the following to you in a note – I remember writing to you about it, but I can’t find what I thought I wrote in a note I sent, a comment on ConnorWatch, or a “work in progress” file on my laptop.] For a great answer to what Paul might mean in Colossians 1:24, I’d recommend listening to this message by John Piper:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/MediaPlayer/2073/Audio/ - Radical Effects of the Resurrection. In it he also talks briefly about Richard Wurmbrand (who founded Voice of the Martyrs) who had some incredibly challenging things to say about embracing suffering.

In summary, I think there is a tension between seeking relief from a situation, and allowing God to be God in placing people in circumstances in which their lives end up showing Christ to the world through the testing of their faith in ways that would not have been possible otherwise – and in ways which greatly magnify the Name of the Lord. I do think you’re right in that one cannot add “not my will but Thine” as a mantra and expect positive answers to our prayers – but I’m not yet convinced that we are never supposed to carry that attitude while we pray. To do so would seem to me to signal a pendulum swing to the other side which could potentially prevent us from persevering through a trial with joy.

Oh – one more thing: Chris has a review (http://pilgriminconflict.blogspot.com/2008/08/why-is-it-easier-to-obey-god-than-to.html) of what looks like a wonderful book by Jerry Bridges called Trusting God Even When Life Hurts. Yeah, I know – another book! But perhaps the excerpts in Chris’ review will help this discussion a little bit. (Chris – does the book address the topic of Eric’s post?)

With much love and continued prayer,
Lee Nakamura – Morgan Hill, CA

 
At September 2, 2008 9:05 AM , Blogger pilgriminconflict said...

Hi Lee,

You are correct in that Manton never addresses the "not my will, but thine" prayer. But he addresses doubting (because this is what James addresses). And I saw the connection in that, though we often pray "not my will, but thine" as an offering of submission, we could easily be deceived in that this comes from doubting that God can do what we pray for (and therefore giving us an out from exercising our faith in boldly expecting it) rather than it coming from a true heart of submission. I'm not saying that we never pray this genuinely. But as I inspect my own heart with honesty, I can see the unbelief that is so often attached to that prayer.

What about the leper praying that way? I thought about that a bit because it does appear to be the same way Jesus prays. But as I look at the leper, there are a couple of distinct things about him that jump out at me. First, he doesn't address his own will but only God's (and the difference between he and Jesus is that Jesus is God). Second, his approach seems to be very bold or at least relentless (he is imploring or begging).

That being said, this is ultimately a matter of the heart. It's not about whether I use certain words in my prayer or not (I'm definitely not saying we shouldn't pray "not my will, but thine"). But I think it should make us more aware of what is truly in our hearts when we pray what we pray.

Does that answer your question?

Grace,
Chris

 
At September 2, 2008 3:50 PM , Anonymous Lee said...

Chris - thanks, yes that answers my (first :-) question. And I agree that doubt can creep in easily under the guise of an ostensibly pious "not my will, but Thine" - and I've definitely also been there as well!

Yes, the leper was bold! And he also came to Jesus with a heart of worship. You don't think that his (the leper's) own will/desire is implicit in his request?

Also, here's another example of trusting God regardless of the outcome which I forgot to add to my comment yesterday, but which I was reminded of by a comment Linda made for another post this morning. The story doesn't have the words "not my will, but Thine" in it, but I think that the attitude is clearly implied... In chapter 3 of the book of Daniel, enemies of Daniel and his three friends have set up Daniel's friends to be targets of the wrath of Nebuchadnezzar. After that:

Daniel 3:13 Furious with rage, Nebuchadnezzar summoned Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. So these men were brought before the king, 14 and Nebuchadnezzar said to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the image of gold I have set up? 15 Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?"

16 Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you in this matter. 17 If we are thrown into the blazing furnace, the God we serve is able to save us from it, and he will rescue us from your hand, O king. 18 But even if he does not, we want you to know, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the image of gold you have set up." (NIV)

You know the rest - God, in this case, chose to deliver them.

 

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